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Comment voyez-vous l'univers de la Roue du Temps ?
(Sujet créé par Lewin l 05/01/07 à 14:16)
Alors voila, ce qui est merveilleux dans un livre, c'est que notre imagination a une marge de manoeuvre plutôt exceptionnelle, donc nous voyons tous différemment même les choses parfois les mieux décrites. La question est, comment voyez-vous telle ou telle chose ?
Commençons par les Enfants de la Lumière, comment les imaginez-vous ? Personnellement, je les vois comme des Templiers, même si le heaume est censé être conique, je les vois avec le casque habituel des Templiers. Et vous ?
Idem
Un ordre religieux/fanatique international, avec des manteaux blancs, ça evoque forcement des templiers ou autre ordre assimilé (chevaliers hospitaliers, teutonniques...)
Il suffit alors de remplacer la croix par un soleil ou une crosse.
Petite parenthése hors sujet BM:
Pour les aiels, je les vois bien comme un melange de zoulous (je me suis pas mal documenté sur leur sujet avant de lire la RdT, et ils ont beaucoup de comportements et points communs) et d'amerindiens.
J'imagine donc leur lances plutot comme des Iklwas
Marrant, pour moi c'est un peu un mix entre tous ça : touaregs pour le désert et le voile, ninjas pour le combat rapproché et pour les lances, j'avoue que je mettait sur le compte de l'interdiction de l'épée.
Pour les Shienariens, il y a, à mon avis, une influence japonaise.
Lorsque Lan et Algemar discutent poésie à Fal Dara, je pense automatiquement à de haikus
Et donc, par association, j'imagine leurs armures et leurs armes comme proches de celles des samourais
Je suggére (c'est par là que j'ai commencé) la lecture de la BD ZoulouLand (18 tomes, mais je pense trouvable en bibliotheque) et le visionage du film Zoulou (de Cy Endfield avec Stanley Baker, Jack Hawkins, Ulla Jacobsson...).
On y apprends nottament:
- Que les Zoulous sont tres doués pour se camoufler dans leur environement et etre plus proche de leur ennemi que celui ci ne le croit.
- Qu'ils peuvent en sprint etre plus rapide qu'un cheval et meprisent ces animaux et ceux qui les montent.
- Qu'ls peuvent couvrir de grandes distances en une journée.
- Que leurs armes principales sont la lance courte et le bouclier, et qu'ils preferent le corps a corps.
- Que leur strategie est d'attaquer en tres grand nombre et ainsi d'encercler l'ennemi avant de le submeger.
- Qu'ils ont des expressions originales (du genre de la danse des lances dans la RdT)
- Qu'eux aussi ont eu la venue d'un "messie" qui a metamorphosé leur peuple.
- Qu'ils ont une caste de sorciers/magiciens, qui vit a part mais conseille Roi et chefs.
etc, etc....
Si vous voulez, je ferais une recherche pour approfondir et detailler.
Mais je recommande quand meme au minimum de voir "Zoulou" pour ce faire une image des attaques aielles dans New Spring et surtout Dumai's Wells (inspirée de Rorke's drift?).
Les japonais conviennent mieux soit au Seanchan, soit au Cairhien : des casques en forme de cloche, le soleil levant,...mais surtout le Seanchan ; le Shienar, je pense que ce sont des chinois, leur chignon ressemble plus à celui de chinois qu'à celui des japonais.
Sinon, les tairens, ce sont des espagnols, aucun doute là dessus. Les noms, les casques à rebords, les oliverais, la flotte, la cavalerie prestigieuse, tout y est !
pour moi le Shara a aussi quelque chose de l'Asie: la difficulté d'y commercer et la dagerosité de s'écarter des endroits autoriser des étrangers (voir l'histoire du commerce de la soie et des comptoirs autorisés dans certaines villes, notamment décrite dans le livre Shôgun)L'asie a mis du temps à s'ouvrir sur l'extérieur et tenait à se préserver des étrangers
Oui, surtout le Japon ; ils massacraient tous ceux qui tentaient de venir sur une de leurs îles.
Pour en revenir à la Saldea, plutôt que des mongols, je les verrais bien en tant que syriens. Les mongols privilégiaient les archers à cheval, tandis que les syriens avaient beaucoup de cavalerie légère ( et aussi des chars, mais ça...) avec des sabres à lames courbes et des pantalons bouffants.
Oui, surtout le Japon ; ils massacraient tous ceux qui tentaient de venir sur une de leurs îles.
ça depends de l'epoque et du Daimyo local Mais je vois mal le rapport Seanshan / japonais.
Les Seanshans m'evoquent plus les etatsuniens.
Venant de l'ouest, debarquant et envahissant tout grace a leur suprematie militaire.
Pour la culture, peut etre s'agit il comme pour les etatsuniens d'un mix de differentes cultures.
Leur systeme de catse supreme/famille royale et d'ongles longs ne sont pas japonais. plutot chinois.
Oui, mais d'une manière globale...même les marchands hollandais ont eu beaucoup de mal pour commercer au Japon.
Après, tu as raison, il y a eu des exceptions.
Je voyais toujours les Aiels comme un mélange de Touareg/Ninja mais tes comparaisons avec les zoulous est tres interressantes.
Touareg par rapport à leur vie de la désert, leur capacité à s'adapter à ce lieu hostile
Et Ninja/Samurai pour le combat et un style de vie plein de regles et d'honneur.
Lilla Mu ! Bizarreland........ Das ist das Land der begrenzten Unmöglichkeiten
J'ai vu sur un autre forum un rapprochement Mayenne/France, je vais rechercher ce qui se disait là dessus.
Voilà, y a pas grand chose finalement:
Mayene: Mayenne (1573, D F): for Charles de Lorraine-Guise, FP. Passed to Gonzaga 1621. Sold 1658 to La Porte-Mazarin. The title of duke remained by special clause in the letters patent, and became extinct in 1738. Essentially, Mayenne was a small, royal land-grant from the French Crown, that was near the Riviera. [Richard Boyé]
Mayene: Cities of Hanseatic League, Venice, Genoa (RJ); Also, many of the Mayener names seem to carry a French flavor (e.g. Bertain Gallenne, Evonne), and "Mayene" itself seems to be a take-off on "Mayenne," an extinct French estate.
Obviously, the various countries and nations of Randland draw some the their characteristics from real-world nations and cultures (both current and historical). Here's a list of Randland countries and real-world countries which may have influenced them. The ones labeled "RJ" are ones which have been stated/confirmed by RJ. The rest are just reasonable speculations.
Aes Sedai: Aes Sedai organization is based on the way convents were organized between 1000 and 1800 AD. (RJ) Also, the Aes Sedai seem to have an "ecclesiastical" hierarchy, with the Hall of the Tower and the Amyrlin Seat being similar in nature to the College of Cardinals and the Pope. The current split in the Tower and election of two Amyrlins is similar to the Great Schism of the Roman Catholic Church (1378-1415), when two Popes claimed authority over the Church [Robert Dahm].
Aiel: Cheyenne, Apache, Zulu, Bedouin, Japanese, Berbers (RJ); See section 3.13.
Altara: Italy; a loose confederacy of semi-autonomous regions beneath a weak monarch. The capital city contains elements of a much, much older city (Rome) complete with large public hippodromes (race tracks), the diet is heavily into seafoods and cheeses, the culture is outdoorsy and seems evocative of Mediterranean life. The people are dark-haired, dark-eyed and have "olive" complexions, which also suggests Southern Europeans. The makeup of the capital city Ebou Dar, with its strong guilds, use of both canals and streets, and frequent and uninhibited public celebrations, is reminiscent of Venice.
Amadicia: The fashions (gathers of ringlets, deep shady bonnets, bows on the women, high crowned hats and long coats for the men) seem vaguely suggestive of the Commonwealth Period of England, when the Puritans held sway. This also meshes with the notion that Amadicia is a quasi-theocracy, as they are essentially ruled by a military order of "monks" who seem to encourage a, well, puritanical and pious lifestyle among the populace. They also like to throw accusations of witchery everywhere, not at all unlike the Puritans who moved to North America.
Andor: England, or perhaps Great Britain in a looser sense. The honorable queendom evokes Elizabethan England specifically with its "Cult of the Queen." A few of the names of the noble houses seem to be lifted from Welsh mythology, specifically in the Mabinogion (e.g. House Arawn). The names of the current Royal Family are deeply steeped in Arthuriana, (e.g. Morgase [Morgause], Elayne [Elaine], Gawyn [Gawain]).
Arad Doman: Arabic cultures as well as Iran specifically (strictly speaking, Iranians are not Arabs); firstly, the word "arab" is almost present in the name "Arad Doman." Some of the characters' last names seem Arabic in theme (e.g. Sharif, Eriff, Zeffar), as well as some of their first names (e.g. Alsalam, Rashad). The capital city is Bandar Eban, a great port. In Iran, one of their larger maritime cities is Bandar Ebbas. Further, in Arad Doman one can find the Terhana Library, one of the three greatest in the world. Tehran, capital of modern day Iran, was a famed center of Islamic learning. However, the lacquered sticks, sursa, used as eating implements are chopsticks by any other name, and common throughout Asia.
Arafel: Arafel seems to be similar to Saldaea in that it seems to evoke certain peoples of the Black Sea and Asia Minor region. The horse culture of these peoples is alluded to by the fact that Arafellin are said "to love their horses like children." Also, the capital city of Arafel is Shol Arbela. Arbela was a regional capital of the Persians, a place of military historical significance (Alexander defeated the Persian Emperor, Darius III, there). Also, the name might be an allusion to Amrafel, who was the king of "Shinar," which was a biblical name for the lands ruled by Babylon. See Saldaea.
Cairhien: France, with a dash of Japan. The noblewomen's fashions seem to be somewhat reminiscent of the clothing from the Eighteenth century; high curled coiffures, full wide skirts and ruffs of lace. The Court of Louis XIV was called the Court of the Sun King. Cairhienin symbology is all about the sun, i.e. Sun Palace, Sun Throne. Furthermore, the prevalence of Daes Dae'mar calls to mind the lethal intrigues at the Court of Versailles (Affair of the Poisons, anyone?). The officers and noblemen wear con on their backs, small pennants attached to a short staff, which were also seen in feudal Japan. Japan is the "Land of the Rising Sun," Cairhien is the "Hill of the Golden Dawn," and its symbol is a rising sun.
Illian: Illian has something of a "Greek-Mediterranean" feel to it. Some of the names certainly follow a Hellenic pattern (e.g. Stepaneos, Demitrides). The King of Illian wears the "Laurel Crown," an allusion to the crowns of laurels awarded at the ancient Olympic Games. "Illian" itself is a take-off on "Illium," a name for Troy during the Classical Age. Lastly, the Illianer Companions seems to be a reference to the Macedonian hetairoi (meaning 'companions' in Greek), which were a prestigious order of mounted warriors that served the ruling house. Any decent scholar of military history such as RJ would know about the hetairoi. The bees on the flag seem to evoke the bees that were common in the heraldry of Napoleonic France.
Land of Madmen: Australia?
Malkier: Tibet, Nepal. A country of spectacular natural beauty nestled high in the mountains. The ki'san (dots) painted in the center of the brows of the women could either be an allusion to the Hindu practice, or to some representations of the Buddha; an overall thematic feel reminiscent of the countries near the Himalayas. John Stopford adds, "Malkier and Tibet have both disappeared under an evil empire that swallowed them up without reason, leaving behind one last leader as a touchstone for the kingdom itself."
Mayene: Cities of Hanseatic League, Venice, Genoa (RJ); Also, many of the Mayener names seem to carry a French flavor (e.g. Bertain Gallenne, Evonne), and "Mayene" itself seems to be a take-off on "Mayenne," an extinct French estate.
Saldaea: "a number of Middle Eastern cultures and several cultures in countries surrounding the Black Sea" (RJ) This is most directly recognizable in the "horse-culture" of Saldaea, which is evocative of many nomadic peoples of the Asian steppes. The name itself is similar to "Chaldaea," a section of the Assyrian and Babylonian empires. Place names are suggestive. Davram Bashere is "Lord of Bashere, Tyr and Sidona." Bashir was a place in Central Asia, and Tyre and Sidon were cities in modern day Lebanon, Tyre being the place of origin of "Tyrean purple." More flavorings come in their first names, such as "Tenobia," which is similar to "Zenobia," a historical queen of the ancient kingdom of Palmyra, which was in the region. Physically, Saldaeans can be seen to resemble the Mongols, excepting the red-haired, green-eyed rarities like Sheriam.
Sea Folk: A combination of allusions. The people were initially described much as Sub-Saharan Africans (tight, curly hair, dark skin tones), but later versions have them with long, straight black hair, which coupled with the dark complexions, silk garments and the medallions on chains attached to noserings seems to evoke India more than anything else. The intricately knotted sashes used to connote rank and station resemble Japanese obi (kimono sashes).
Seanchan: Imperial China, Imperial Japan, Persian Empire, Ottoman and Byzantine Empire. (RJ); The lacquer work of the Seanchan seems to be inspired by the Far East, the Emperor/Empress that is too magnificent for commoners to gaze upon is a concept borrowed from Japan. The phrase "Ever Victorious Army" was actually in use in Japan during one point of its history. Persian Empire: The Crystal Throne that inspires awe is a direct allusion to a Persian epic story. Ancient Egypt: pleated linen clothing, the tonsured heads, the patterns on Suroth's gown (symbols within cartouche-like ovals) which could be visualized as resembling hieroglyphics. WH provides even more cultural flavorings, including Greek names (Tuon's middle name is "Kore" [an ancient name for the Greek Goddess Persephone] and Selucia [Selucid Kingdom]), and Egyptian names (Neferi [Nefertiti]).
Shara: Africa in a macro-sense. The name "Shara" seems similar to "Sahara," and another name for Shara, "Kigali" is an actual place in Africa (capital of Rwanda). Furthermore, the two Sharans we have met were described as "African" in appearance, with tight, curly hair and dark skins. The silk production, "Silk Path" (Silk Road) and closed port cities are allusions, however, to Imperial China.
Shienar: Japan; the restrained, formal aesthetic, the communal genderless bathing rooms, the haiku-type poetry recited by Lan, the topknots of the warriors. Also, a dollop of Medieval Feudal Europe, notably the castle towns and the mounted warriors in full plate armor (knights by any other name), and the idealized courtesy and respect toward women (chivalry). Continuing a theme in the names for the Borderland nations, the name "Shienar" seems to be an allusion to "Shinar," a biblical name for Babylon.
Tarabon: Arabic cultures. The word "arab" is contained in the name "Tarabon," the veils seem to be reminiscent of certain Arabic societies, although in Tarabon they are unisex. The flattened cylindrical hats worn by the men are essentially the same type of hat as a 'fez,' popular in North African Arabic countries. The architecture has a Middle Eastern flavor; minarets and peaked domes, pointed arches.
Tear: Spain (nobility); the names of some of the High Lords have a distinct Iberian flavor (e.g. Estanda, Carlomin, Rosana) as do the names of some of their houses (e.g. House Saniago [Santiago]), their fashions seem to be reminiscent of Renaissance Spain (full skirted gowns with wide lace ruffs, puffy sleeved coats, oiled beards and moustaches). The armor and military équipage of the Tairen Defenders of the Stone are described as sounding very similar to the military équipage of the Spanish Conquistadores, notably the crested, rimmed helmets. The lower classes, on the other hand, seem to be very Asian in feel; some of the names (e.g. Juilin, Siuan, Huan), and some of their clothing; flattened conical straw hats, ties instead of buttons, wooden platforms for the feet as well as the usage of bamboo. But also some of the lower class members' names seem very Spanish as well (e.g. Sanche [Sanchez], Mecandes [Mecandez]).
Two Rivers: As part of Andor, the Duopotamians are fittingly modeled after the auld English country folk, presenting the fabled (and not all that accurate) picture of the joys of simple rural society. The use of longbows is a clear reference to the famous English bowmen that whupped French ass in the 14th century (and each others' ass in the next, but anyway).
RJ has said in interviews, "I live in the Two Rivers - check a map!" Charleston, South Carolina (RJ's hometown) nestles in the fork of the Cooper and Ashley rivers. [Michael Brown]
Whitecloaks: Teutonic Knights (RJ).
In March of 2000, Paul Ward received a letter from RJ in which he listed what some of the regional accents of Randland sound like:
Two Rivers - Irish/English
Illianers - Dutch
Aiel - somewhat Slavic
Tairen - Spanish
Domani - Indian
Saldaean - Egyptian/North African
Seanchan - Texas
("Y'all bow down to the Empress, y'hear?" - Johan Gustafsson)
Et, plus particulierement pour les Aiels:
http://linuxmafia.com/jordan/3_sources/3.13_aiel.html
"Little tiger who hunts the northern pass" writes:
In reviewing the theories on the Aiel and who they represent, I have not found any references to any other cultures other than the thirteen tribes of Israel. At first glance I would also have agreed with this theory if I had not been initiated into Native American culture, and in particular the philosophies and history of the plains Indian tribes.
In reviewing their histories I have come across many similar tales in various tribes where the people were either forced to move to a new home or, for some unknown reason, chose to make the move of their own accord. The most notable would be the forced move of the Cherokee. This tribe could very easily pass for the peaceful Aiel who were forced to move to the hot dry lands of the Aiel Waste, a very fitting analogy for Oklahoma. However, due to the fact that they never became a serious threat in later years I have to discount them unless the Aiel are considered a blend of various tribes.
The two most notable tribes which I have encountered to date would be the Cheyenne and the Kiowa. Both tribes have tales which tell of their people moving from their ancestral home in search of a new home. There is a line in the Cheyenne tale which specifically says 'where every hand was raised against us'. This line I also believe was used by the Aiel in describing their migration. The Cheyenne were also made up of thirteen clans according to the original histories I have encountered about them. Having been an integral part of the Algonquin society of the northeastern tribes they were also a peaceful people until after their move to the northern plains. Their encroachment into other tribes' territories and the resulting wars is the most probable reason they became an extremely efficient warrior society. The Kiowa also have a tale of their movement from somewhere in the northwest area of the United States where they had to fight all the way to their current home, which I believe is in the Oklahoma territory, ending up with fewer than 300 people in the tribe. They also became an efficient warrior society due to their move and the expansion of the European colonists in later years.
The rituals of the Aiel are also distinctly Native American. The sweat baths taken by the wise ones and other Aiel are a definitive ritual of Plains Indian culture. (It may also be a part of other native American cultures but I have only been involved with the plains Indians and the Crow tribe to be specific.) The sweat lodge was described rather well by RJ, so I will not go into detail, but I know of no Israelite tales of sweat ceremonies or baths. The other ritual most notably used is the vision quest. This entails the seeker of the vision going out into the wilderness, stripping down to the bare flesh, and fasting for three to four days until a vision (hallucination from lack of food) is seen. In some tribes a 'sponsor' goes along as well to let the rest of the tribe know what is happening. This, of course, sounds just like Rand and Mat's trip into Rhuidean where they journey into the unknown without food or water, Rand has his 'vision' of his ancestors (another typical Indian philosophy), and they return three days later. I am not surprised if no one else had caught this, having been on a vision quest I did not catch this until I read it a second time and I was still unsure of it being one.
The thing that surprised me the most is the fact that no one has, to my knowledge, mentioned the fact that the Aiel warrior societies all sound distinctly Native American. I can understand about the clan names, two of which sound Japanese to me, but with names like Thunder Walkers, Brothers of the Eagle, Mountain Dancers, and Stone Dogs, I was surprised the connection had not been brought up before (to my knowledge). Being a Crazy Dog of the Crow Indian Nation I was pleased to note the connection between Stone Dogs and my own warrior society. Of course, Crazy Dogs drive a stake into the ground and tie their left leg to it in order to show they have no fear while protecting the tribe. I have yet to see an Aiel do that.
There were also tribe in the Northeast where each clan had a central meeting house. They also had a female as the leader of the clan. In order to gain entrance to the house permission was granted by her, like the Aiel House Mistress. [Leo Tokarski adds, "Also, in some Native American cultures, only women were allowed to own land."]
One last note, The more observant will have realized that the plains Indians were masters of the horse. But, if you could run as fast as one too, why bother? [Michelle Levine counters, "There is no problem with the lack of horses... there were no horses in North America prior to colonization."]
Eddie Bell mentions that the Sioux had a form of first-sister/brother acceptance - basically, if you decided that someone was honorable, you could adopt them into the family as a brother or sister. The Sioux's method of counting coup also bears remarkable similarities to ji'e'toh.
Tony Z. adds, "The thing with spear/shield, and then the Aiel battle tactics that Lan describes to Rand, for instance, are pretty much lifted from the Zulus."
Une traduction a la va vite de la premiere partie du post precedent:
Aes Sedai: L'organisation des Aes Sedai est basée sur l'organisation des couvents entre l'an 1000 and 1800 . (RJ) Les Aes sedai ont aussi une organisation Ecclesiastique, avec le Hall de la Tour et le Siege de l'Amyrlin similaires en nature au college des Cardinaus et au Pape. La scission de la Tour en deux est similaire au grand Schisme catholique (1378-1415), Quand il y'avait 2 papes [Robert Dahm].
Altara: Italie; Une confederation relachée de regions semi autonaumes rassemblées sous un roi faible.. LA capitale contient des elemenst d'une cité bien plus ancienne (Rome) avec meme des hippodromes. La nourriture est essetiellement marine ou des fromages., La culture est de type "vie au grand air" et mediterraneene. Les gens ont les cheuveux et les yeux sombres, et la peau olivatre, Ce qui suggére aussi des sud europeens. La capitale, Ebou Dar, avec son systeme de guildes, utilse des canaux ET des rues,et des fetes publiques sont frequents, le tout rappelant Venise.
Amadicia: La façon de s'habiller, la mode, rappelle l'angleterre du commonwealth, quand les puritains tenaient la balance. Cela se mele aussi au fait qu' Amadicia est une quasi theocracie, essentiellement gérée par un ordre de moines encourageant une vie pieuse et puritaine pour le peuple. Ils lancent aussi des accusations de sorcellerie de partout, un peu comme les puritains ayant migré en amerique du nord.
Andor: L'Angleterre, ou peut etre la Grande Bretagne dans un sens plus general. La royauté evoque l'angleterre elizabethaine, avec son "culte de la Reine". Quelques uns des noms de Maisons proviennent apparament de la mythologie galloise, en particulier dans le Mabinogion (Maison Arawn). Les noms de la maison royale sont eux ancrés profondéments dans la légende Arthurienne. (Margause, Elaine, Gauvain...)
Arad Doman: Cultures arabes, voire plus specifiquement iranienne (les iraniens ne sont pas des arabes stricto sensu) . D'un, le nom "Arabe" est quasiment present dans "Arad Doman", et des noms ont une consonnance arabe (Sharif, Eriff, Zeffar). de meme que certains des prenoms (Alsalam, Rashad). La capitale est Bandar Eban, un grand port. En Iran, l'une des cités maritimes les plus grande est Bandar Ebbas. De plus, en Arad Doman, on trouve la librairie de Teheran, une des trois plus grandes au monde. D'un autre coté, les baguettes utilisées pour manger sont elles communes en Asie.
Bon, je m'arrete là pour ce soir. si quelqu'un veut prendre la suite Moi, je ne pourrais m'y remettre que lundi.
